Zhilei Zhang says "Wilder is out of Ammo!"

[Beanz]

deontay's power always seemed overrated to me. there's a reason he targeted tyson on the comeback trail over aj

"... targeted Tyson on the comeback trail over AJ..."

Help me understand here. Aren't comebacks usually after you've lost, or had a down in your career? If my memory serves me correctly, Wilder didn't lose until his second Fury fight. If my memory serves me correctly even further, it was Fury who jumped in and put an end to the shenanigans between Wilder and AJ where each side continuously claimed the other side was ducking. This is all well documented and was talked about ad nauseum in the forum.

The following post I think is much more accurate:

The thing is, AJ dick riders will use this as an excuse to say AJ was better and would have beaten Wilder. But I contend the 2016/2017 Wilder would have knocked AJ spark out. Like he did Fury in the first fight, just that AJ would not have gotten up.

To be clear, nobody on here disputes the fact that Wilder's fundamentals have always been flawed. That he built his early resume on inferior opposition. That he had a huge right hand and little else.

But in Spanish we have a saying: "Del arbol caído todos hacen leña." Literally translated, "everyone makes firewood from the fallen tree." The closest idea in English would be "beating a dead horse."

Now that Wilder is basically, um... firewood, it's typical boxing fan behavior to dismiss him entirely. At every stage of his career. Forget his two fights against the heavily avoided Luis Ortiz. Oh... he was too old? You mean like Zhang old? Oops, I forgot. Zhang is older than Luis Ortiz was at that time. Yet he could be in line for a title shot.

So yeah... not all AJ fans are "dick riders." Not all Wilder detractors are haters.

But the fact is no one knows for certain who was ducking whom between Wilder and AJ. All I know is Fury came in and spared us a continuation of the soap opera.

Had Wilder and AJ met at that point in time? Matter of bar/pub discussion.

I'll play it safe and call it a 50/50 fight.

It'll never happen, as Wilder is on his way out of boxing... and AJ has commendably come back from his own losses.

I’m not going to dig it all up, but it’s fairly common knowledge to the extent that Wilder admitted that he pulled out of negotiations for the fight in order to fight Fury.
He even tweeted that he took less money for the Fury fight than he would’ve got for the Joshua fight.

Which proves what exactly... that Wilder was avoiding Joshua? That Wilder was scared of Joshua?

Spin it as you like. Fact is, they were both involved in an interminable (and to us fans, insufferable) back-and-forth from which Fury saved us all. It's one of the few things I give Fury credit for in his career. He took on the big, bad monster... and was successful. Had Joshua been as willing to take that challenge as Fury was... he was perfectly capable of making it happen.

Differently from most other boxing fans, I pay less attention to empty words from fighters on social media, and more attention to circumstances, track records, and intentions.

I can’t copy and paste it cos I don’t know how to , but this is a tweet from Wilder at 19.09 on 31/10/2020.

“ When that fight was a draw, I told you that I would give you a rematch. You know I was offered more money to fight Joshua than I was getting to fight you. Again being a man of my word, I fought you
like I said I would...”
clear as day , it’s down to Wilder why the fight never happened , nobody else.
Or perhaps when they were in negotiations and Wilder said he was “offering AJ” , when in fact Wilder was having an elbow op.
Anyway , see what you want to see, but Wilder got found out and never recovered.
AJ got found out by Ruiz and put it right , and got found out by Usyk and when straight back in with him.
And although he was beaten by the better man again, yes he had a meltdown in the ring immediately after, but what has he done since ? Everything possible to put himself in contention.

Oh so you're referring to AFTER Wilder had fought Fury the first time. As long as we understand each other.

So just to be clear, you're not pushing the "Wilder was ducking Joshua" rubbish angle.

Good.

Beyond that, I don't see anything you wrote which contradicts anything I've written.

I clearly stated that Wilder and Joshua have gone in opposite directions since then.

If it makes you feel better to say it in your own words, that's cool.

My point remains.

Claims that Wilder may have ducked (or been afraid to fight) Joshua are groundless and unsubstantiated. To be fair, the other way around can't be proven either.

Had Wilder and Joshua met when they were SUPPOSED to, IMHO it would've been a 50/50 fight.

Wilder was not yet damaged... and Joshua's style was not all wrong for Wilder.

Nothing more need be said.

I don't believe Joshua has ever ducked anyone. There are names on his record both Fury and Wilder avoided. Both Fury and Wilder absolutely ducked Joshua. I don't think you can credibly deny that anymore.

[TitoFan]

deontay's power always seemed overrated to me. there's a reason he targeted tyson on the comeback trail over aj

"... targeted Tyson on the comeback trail over AJ..."

Help me understand here. Aren't comebacks usually after you've lost, or had a down in your career? If my memory serves me correctly, Wilder didn't lose until his second Fury fight. If my memory serves me correctly even further, it was Fury who jumped in and put an end to the shenanigans between Wilder and AJ where each side continuously claimed the other side was ducking. This is all well documented and was talked about ad nauseum in the forum.

The following post I think is much more accurate:

The thing is, AJ dick riders will use this as an excuse to say AJ was better and would have beaten Wilder. But I contend the 2016/2017 Wilder would have knocked AJ spark out. Like he did Fury in the first fight, just that AJ would not have gotten up.

To be clear, nobody on here disputes the fact that Wilder's fundamentals have always been flawed. That he built his early resume on inferior opposition. That he had a huge right hand and little else.

But in Spanish we have a saying: "Del arbol caído todos hacen leña." Literally translated, "everyone makes firewood from the fallen tree." The closest idea in English would be "beating a dead horse."

Now that Wilder is basically, um... firewood, it's typical boxing fan behavior to dismiss him entirely. At every stage of his career. Forget his two fights against the heavily avoided Luis Ortiz. Oh... he was too old? You mean like Zhang old? Oops, I forgot. Zhang is older than Luis Ortiz was at that time. Yet he could be in line for a title shot.

So yeah... not all AJ fans are "dick riders." Not all Wilder detractors are haters.

But the fact is no one knows for certain who was ducking whom between Wilder and AJ. All I know is Fury came in and spared us a continuation of the soap opera.

Had Wilder and AJ met at that point in time? Matter of bar/pub discussion.

I'll play it safe and call it a 50/50 fight.

It'll never happen, as Wilder is on his way out of boxing... and AJ has commendably come back from his own losses.

I’m not going to dig it all up, but it’s fairly common knowledge to the extent that Wilder admitted that he pulled out of negotiations for the fight in order to fight Fury.
He even tweeted that he took less money for the Fury fight than he would’ve got for the Joshua fight.

Which proves what exactly... that Wilder was avoiding Joshua? That Wilder was scared of Joshua?

Spin it as you like. Fact is, they were both involved in an interminable (and to us fans, insufferable) back-and-forth from which Fury saved us all. It's one of the few things I give Fury credit for in his career. He took on the big, bad monster... and was successful. Had Joshua been as willing to take that challenge as Fury was... he was perfectly capable of making it happen.

Differently from most other boxing fans, I pay less attention to empty words from fighters on social media, and more attention to circumstances, track records, and intentions.

I can’t copy and paste it cos I don’t know how to , but this is a tweet from Wilder at 19.09 on 31/10/2020.

“ When that fight was a draw, I told you that I would give you a rematch. You know I was offered more money to fight Joshua than I was getting to fight you. Again being a man of my word, I fought you
like I said I would...”
clear as day , it’s down to Wilder why the fight never happened , nobody else.
Or perhaps when they were in negotiations and Wilder said he was “offering AJ” , when in fact Wilder was having an elbow op.
Anyway , see what you want to see, but Wilder got found out and never recovered.
AJ got found out by Ruiz and put it right , and got found out by Usyk and when straight back in with him.
And although he was beaten by the better man again, yes he had a meltdown in the ring immediately after, but what has he done since ? Everything possible to put himself in contention.

Oh so you're referring to AFTER Wilder had fought Fury the first time. As long as we understand each other.

So just to be clear, you're not pushing the "Wilder was ducking Joshua" rubbish angle.

Good.

Beyond that, I don't see anything you wrote which contradicts anything I've written.

I clearly stated that Wilder and Joshua have gone in opposite directions since then.

If it makes you feel better to say it in your own words, that's cool.

My point remains.

Claims that Wilder may have ducked (or been afraid to fight) Joshua are groundless and unsubstantiated. To be fair, the other way around can't be proven either.

Had Wilder and Joshua met when they were SUPPOSED to, IMHO it would've been a 50/50 fight.

Wilder was not yet damaged... and Joshua's style was not all wrong for Wilder.

Nothing more need be said.

I don't believe Joshua has ever ducked anyone. There are names on his record both Fury and Wilder avoided. Both Fury and Wilder absolutely ducked Joshua. I don't think you can credibly deny that anymore.

I don't believe Joshua has ever ducked anyone, either. But to categorically say Fury and Wilder ducked Joshua? Hogwash.

Why... because Wilder has plunged off the relevance cliff and because Fury has always played with less than a full deck?

None of that "proves" that either ducked Joshua.

I'm not a diehard fan of any of them, so bias doesn't come into my argument.

"Ducking" arguments are always shaky, to say the least. I suppose it's easier when both fighters are safely past each other and there's absolutely zero chance they'll ever meet.

Joshua could've made the Wilder fight happen had he really wanted it. Fact.

Fury swooped in and spared us the ongoing soap opera between Joshua and Wilder. Fact.

No one knows for certain how Joshua would've fared against that version of Wilder. Fact.

[NoSavingByTheBell]

plunging off the relevance Cliff for sure. Let's all ask ourselves how well this went

https://youtube.com/shorts/Ucvetds53...ewpsfzNPqxiHw6

[NoSavingByTheBell]

plunging off the relevance Cliff for sure. Let's all ask ourselves how well this went

https://youtube.com/shorts/Ucvetds53...ewpsfzNPqxiHw6

Joshua only ever really looked good against 41-year-old Klitschko let's be honest. That much earlier version of wilder would have smoked Little Anthony

[Primo Carnera]

deontay's power always seemed overrated to me. there's a reason he targeted tyson on the comeback trail over aj

"... targeted Tyson on the comeback trail over AJ..."

Help me understand here. Aren't comebacks usually after you've lost, or had a down in your career? If my memory serves me correctly, Wilder didn't lose until his second Fury fight. If my memory serves me correctly even further, it was Fury who jumped in and put an end to the shenanigans between Wilder and AJ where each side continuously claimed the other side was ducking. This is all well documented and was talked about ad nauseum in the forum.

The following post I think is much more accurate:

The thing is, AJ dick riders will use this as an excuse to say AJ was better and would have beaten Wilder. But I contend the 2016/2017 Wilder would have knocked AJ spark out. Like he did Fury in the first fight, just that AJ would not have gotten up.

To be clear, nobody on here disputes the fact that Wilder's fundamentals have always been flawed. That he built his early resume on inferior opposition. That he had a huge right hand and little else.

But in Spanish we have a saying: "Del arbol caído todos hacen leña." Literally translated, "everyone makes firewood from the fallen tree." The closest idea in English would be "beating a dead horse."

Now that Wilder is basically, um... firewood, it's typical boxing fan behavior to dismiss him entirely. At every stage of his career. Forget his two fights against the heavily avoided Luis Ortiz. Oh... he was too old? You mean like Zhang old? Oops, I forgot. Zhang is older than Luis Ortiz was at that time. Yet he could be in line for a title shot.

So yeah... not all AJ fans are "dick riders." Not all Wilder detractors are haters.

But the fact is no one knows for certain who was ducking whom between Wilder and AJ. All I know is Fury came in and spared us a continuation of the soap opera.

Had Wilder and AJ met at that point in time? Matter of bar/pub discussion.

I'll play it safe and call it a 50/50 fight.

It'll never happen, as Wilder is on his way out of boxing... and AJ has commendably come back from his own losses.

I’m not going to dig it all up, but it’s fairly common knowledge to the extent that Wilder admitted that he pulled out of negotiations for the fight in order to fight Fury.
He even tweeted that he took less money for the Fury fight than he would’ve got for the Joshua fight.

Which proves what exactly... that Wilder was avoiding Joshua? That Wilder was scared of Joshua?

Spin it as you like. Fact is, they were both involved in an interminable (and to us fans, insufferable) back-and-forth from which Fury saved us all. It's one of the few things I give Fury credit for in his career. He took on the big, bad monster... and was successful. Had Joshua been as willing to take that challenge as Fury was... he was perfectly capable of making it happen.

Differently from most other boxing fans, I pay less attention to empty words from fighters on social media, and more attention to circumstances, track records, and intentions.

I can’t copy and paste it cos I don’t know how to , but this is a tweet from Wilder at 19.09 on 31/10/2020.

“ When that fight was a draw, I told you that I would give you a rematch. You know I was offered more money to fight Joshua than I was getting to fight you. Again being a man of my word, I fought you
like I said I would...”
clear as day , it’s down to Wilder why the fight never happened , nobody else.
Or perhaps when they were in negotiations and Wilder said he was “offering AJ” , when in fact Wilder was having an elbow op.
Anyway , see what you want to see, but Wilder got found out and never recovered.
AJ got found out by Ruiz and put it right , and got found out by Usyk and when straight back in with him.
And although he was beaten by the better man again, yes he had a meltdown in the ring immediately after, but what has he done since ? Everything possible to put himself in contention.

Oh so you're referring to AFTER Wilder had fought Fury the first time. As long as we understand each other.

So just to be clear, you're not pushing the "Wilder was ducking Joshua" rubbish angle.

Good.

Beyond that, I don't see anything you wrote which contradicts anything I've written.

I clearly stated that Wilder and Joshua have gone in opposite directions since then.

If it makes you feel better to say it in your own words, that's cool.

My point remains.

Claims that Wilder may have ducked (or been afraid to fight) Joshua are groundless and unsubstantiated. To be fair, the other way around can't be proven either.

Had Wilder and Joshua met when they were SUPPOSED to, IMHO it would've been a 50/50 fight.

Wilder was not yet damaged... and Joshua's style was not all wrong for Wilder.

Nothing more need be said.

Believe what you want to believe and read the bits you want and ignore the bits you want. But I reckon time has proved where Wilder and Joshua both are.

[TitoFan]

deontay's power always seemed overrated to me. there's a reason he targeted tyson on the comeback trail over aj

"... targeted Tyson on the comeback trail over AJ..."

Help me understand here. Aren't comebacks usually after you've lost, or had a down in your career? If my memory serves me correctly, Wilder didn't lose until his second Fury fight. If my memory serves me correctly even further, it was Fury who jumped in and put an end to the shenanigans between Wilder and AJ where each side continuously claimed the other side was ducking. This is all well documented and was talked about ad nauseum in the forum.

The following post I think is much more accurate:

The thing is, AJ dick riders will use this as an excuse to say AJ was better and would have beaten Wilder. But I contend the 2016/2017 Wilder would have knocked AJ spark out. Like he did Fury in the first fight, just that AJ would not have gotten up.

To be clear, nobody on here disputes the fact that Wilder's fundamentals have always been flawed. That he built his early resume on inferior opposition. That he had a huge right hand and little else.

But in Spanish we have a saying: "Del arbol caído todos hacen leña." Literally translated, "everyone makes firewood from the fallen tree." The closest idea in English would be "beating a dead horse."

Now that Wilder is basically, um... firewood, it's typical boxing fan behavior to dismiss him entirely. At every stage of his career. Forget his two fights against the heavily avoided Luis Ortiz. Oh... he was too old? You mean like Zhang old? Oops, I forgot. Zhang is older than Luis Ortiz was at that time. Yet he could be in line for a title shot.

So yeah... not all AJ fans are "dick riders." Not all Wilder detractors are haters.

But the fact is no one knows for certain who was ducking whom between Wilder and AJ. All I know is Fury came in and spared us a continuation of the soap opera.

Had Wilder and AJ met at that point in time? Matter of bar/pub discussion.

I'll play it safe and call it a 50/50 fight.

It'll never happen, as Wilder is on his way out of boxing... and AJ has commendably come back from his own losses.

I’m not going to dig it all up, but it’s fairly common knowledge to the extent that Wilder admitted that he pulled out of negotiations for the fight in order to fight Fury.
He even tweeted that he took less money for the Fury fight than he would’ve got for the Joshua fight.

Which proves what exactly... that Wilder was avoiding Joshua? That Wilder was scared of Joshua?

Spin it as you like. Fact is, they were both involved in an interminable (and to us fans, insufferable) back-and-forth from which Fury saved us all. It's one of the few things I give Fury credit for in his career. He took on the big, bad monster... and was successful. Had Joshua been as willing to take that challenge as Fury was... he was perfectly capable of making it happen.

Differently from most other boxing fans, I pay less attention to empty words from fighters on social media, and more attention to circumstances, track records, and intentions.

I can’t copy and paste it cos I don’t know how to , but this is a tweet from Wilder at 19.09 on 31/10/2020.

“ When that fight was a draw, I told you that I would give you a rematch. You know I was offered more money to fight Joshua than I was getting to fight you. Again being a man of my word, I fought you
like I said I would...”
clear as day , it’s down to Wilder why the fight never happened , nobody else.
Or perhaps when they were in negotiations and Wilder said he was “offering AJ” , when in fact Wilder was having an elbow op.
Anyway , see what you want to see, but Wilder got found out and never recovered.
AJ got found out by Ruiz and put it right , and got found out by Usyk and when straight back in with him.
And although he was beaten by the better man again, yes he had a meltdown in the ring immediately after, but what has he done since ? Everything possible to put himself in contention.

Oh so you're referring to AFTER Wilder had fought Fury the first time. As long as we understand each other.

So just to be clear, you're not pushing the "Wilder was ducking Joshua" rubbish angle.

Good.

Beyond that, I don't see anything you wrote which contradicts anything I've written.

I clearly stated that Wilder and Joshua have gone in opposite directions since then.

If it makes you feel better to say it in your own words, that's cool.

My point remains.

Claims that Wilder may have ducked (or been afraid to fight) Joshua are groundless and unsubstantiated. To be fair, the other way around can't be proven either.

Had Wilder and Joshua met when they were SUPPOSED to, IMHO it would've been a 50/50 fight.

Wilder was not yet damaged... and Joshua's style was not all wrong for Wilder.

Nothing more need be said.

Believe what you want to believe and read the bits you want and ignore the bits you want. But I reckon time has proved where Wilder and Joshua both are.

My English must be faulty.

I could've sworn I've said on repeated occasions that no one is disputing where "Wilder and Joshua both are" at the moment.

Our main difference lies in that I filter out social media nonsense like Tweets, and 3rd party "he-said-she-saids", and reach my conclusions based on actual occurrences.

You insist that it was Wilder that ducked Joshua, and I respond by telling you it's impossible to establish who ducked whom.

Wilder and Joshua blabbed and postured a whole lot... and in the end it was Wilder and Fury who fought.

You'd have to ask Joshua himself what his thought processes were during that time.

[TIC]

I don't believe Joshua has ever ducked anyone, either. But to categorically say Fury and Wilder ducked Joshua? Hogwash.

None of that "proves" that either ducked Joshua.

I'm not a diehard fan of any of them, so bias doesn't come into my argument.

Joshua could've made the Wilder fight happen had he really wanted it. Fact.

Fury swooped in and spared us the ongoing soap opera between Joshua and Wilder. Fact.

No one knows for certain how Joshua would've fared against that version of Wilder. Fact.

aj was rated & seen as the number one in the division & held three of the four major belts. deontay & tyson both chose to fight someone other than the perceived number one guy. this proves both deontay & tyson chose not to fight the perceived number one guy with three of the four major belts. no bias needed as that is what happened.

you can't make someone fight you if they don't want to fight you. fact. what was deontay getting out of fighting tyson instead of aj? aj was seen as number one & had three of the four belts. deontay also would have made more for aj over tyson & getting a chance at three belts & the number one guy in the division

tyson swooped in to fight deontay instead of fighting the number one guy with three of the four major belts. fact. what was tyson getting out of fighting deontay instead of aj? aj was seen as number one & had three of the four belts. tyson would have made more for fighting aj over deontay & getting a chance at three belts & the number one guy in the division

no one knows how an aj v deontay fight would have gone at the time. i agree

[NoSavingByTheBell]

Let's be honest about two things sfaccim'

AJ only ever really looked good against the 41-year-old Klitschko

Deontay burned himself out on three fights with Tyson

There is no doubt that if deonte had fought AJ in 2019 he would have harpooned his ass. Look what Andy Ruiz did ffs imagine Wilder before he got worn down by Tyson Fury

[TitoFan]

I don't believe Joshua has ever ducked anyone, either. But to categorically say Fury and Wilder ducked Joshua? Hogwash.

None of that "proves" that either ducked Joshua.

I'm not a diehard fan of any of them, so bias doesn't come into my argument.

Joshua could've made the Wilder fight happen had he really wanted it. Fact.

Fury swooped in and spared us the ongoing soap opera between Joshua and Wilder. Fact.

No one knows for certain how Joshua would've fared against that version of Wilder. Fact.

aj was rated & seen as the number one in the division & held three of the four major belts. deontay & tyson both chose to fight someone other than the perceived number one guy. this proves both deontay & tyson chose not to fight the perceived number one guy with three of the four major belts. no bias needed as that is what happened.

you can't make someone fight you if they don't want to fight you. fact. what was deontay getting out of fighting tyson instead of aj? aj was seen as number one & had three of the four belts. deontay also would have made more for aj over tyson & getting a chance at three belts & the number one guy in the division

tyson swooped in to fight deontay instead of fighting the number one guy with three of the four major belts. fact. what was tyson getting out of fighting deontay instead of aj? aj was seen as number one & had three of the four belts. tyson would have made more for fighting aj over deontay & getting a chance at three belts & the number one guy in the division

no one knows how an aj v deontay fight would have gone at the time. i agree

"Choosing to fight someone else" does not automatically equate to "ducking."

There are many intricacies involved. Discussions, thought processes, demands, conditions, etc, etc.

None of us, no matter how badly we want to claim insight into fighters' heads, can claim to have the "inside scoop."

When "ducks" are obvious, they're obvious.

Wilder and Joshua were involved in long, drawn-out negotiations. If memory serves me correctly (and I'm not one to be interested in the bickering aspect of boxing), Joshua's initial offerings to Wilder were ridiculous.

At some point yes, they were improved.

Wilder-Fury was much easier to make.

What proof do you have that both Wilder and Fury were scared to fight Joshua so they fought each other instead?

I didn't think so.

[TIC]

I don't believe Joshua has ever ducked anyone, either. But to categorically say Fury and Wilder ducked Joshua? Hogwash.

None of that "proves" that either ducked Joshua.

I'm not a diehard fan of any of them, so bias doesn't come into my argument.

Joshua could've made the Wilder fight happen had he really wanted it. Fact.

Fury swooped in and spared us the ongoing soap opera between Joshua and Wilder. Fact.

No one knows for certain how Joshua would've fared against that version of Wilder. Fact.

aj was rated & seen as the number one in the division & held three of the four major belts. deontay & tyson both chose to fight someone other than the perceived number one guy. this proves both deontay & tyson chose not to fight the perceived number one guy with three of the four major belts. no bias needed as that is what happened.

you can't make someone fight you if they don't want to fight you. fact. what was deontay getting out of fighting tyson instead of aj? aj was seen as number one & had three of the four belts. deontay also would have made more for aj over tyson & getting a chance at three belts & the number one guy in the division

tyson swooped in to fight deontay instead of fighting the number one guy with three of the four major belts. fact. what was tyson getting out of fighting deontay instead of aj? aj was seen as number one & had three of the four belts. tyson would have made more for fighting aj over deontay & getting a chance at three belts & the number one guy in the division

no one knows how an aj v deontay fight would have gone at the time. i agree

"Choosing to fight someone else" does not automatically equate to "ducking."

Wilder and Joshua were involved in long, drawn-out negotiations. If memory serves me correctly (and I'm not one to be interested in the bickering aspect of boxing), Joshua's initial offerings to Wilder were ridiculous.

At some point yes, they were improved.

Wilder-Fury was much easier to make.

What proof do you have that both Wilder and Fury were scared to fight Joshua so they fought each other instead?

I didn't think so.

where did i say ducking? did deontay or tyson choose to fight the perceived number one guy in the division with three of the four major belts? can you please provide a source for these ridiculous offers from team aj & a source for what they improved to? deontay v tyson may have been easier to make but my argument is not about how easy a fight is to make it is about who was seen as the top guy in the division & who deontay & tyson chose to fight instead. where did i say deontay or tyson were scared? the fact is they didn't fight the perceived number one guy in the division with three of the four major belts

[TitoFan]

I don't believe Joshua has ever ducked anyone, either. But to categorically say Fury and Wilder ducked Joshua? Hogwash.

None of that "proves" that either ducked Joshua.

I'm not a diehard fan of any of them, so bias doesn't come into my argument.

Joshua could've made the Wilder fight happen had he really wanted it. Fact.

Fury swooped in and spared us the ongoing soap opera between Joshua and Wilder. Fact.

No one knows for certain how Joshua would've fared against that version of Wilder. Fact.

aj was rated & seen as the number one in the division & held three of the four major belts. deontay & tyson both chose to fight someone other than the perceived number one guy. this proves both deontay & tyson chose not to fight the perceived number one guy with three of the four major belts. no bias needed as that is what happened.

you can't make someone fight you if they don't want to fight you. fact. what was deontay getting out of fighting tyson instead of aj? aj was seen as number one & had three of the four belts. deontay also would have made more for aj over tyson & getting a chance at three belts & the number one guy in the division

tyson swooped in to fight deontay instead of fighting the number one guy with three of the four major belts. fact. what was tyson getting out of fighting deontay instead of aj? aj was seen as number one & had three of the four belts. tyson would have made more for fighting aj over deontay & getting a chance at three belts & the number one guy in the division

no one knows how an aj v deontay fight would have gone at the time. i agree

"Choosing to fight someone else" does not automatically equate to "ducking."

Wilder and Joshua were involved in long, drawn-out negotiations. If memory serves me correctly (and I'm not one to be interested in the bickering aspect of boxing), Joshua's initial offerings to Wilder were ridiculous.

At some point yes, they were improved.

Wilder-Fury was much easier to make.

What proof do you have that both Wilder and Fury were scared to fight Joshua so they fought each other instead?

I didn't think so.

where did i say ducking? did deontay or tyson choose to fight the perceived number one guy in the division with three of the four major belts? can you please provide a source for these ridiculous offers from team aj & a source for what they improved to? deontay v tyson may have been easier to make but my argument is not about how easy a fight is to make it is about who was seen as the top guy in the division & who deontay & tyson chose to fight instead. where did i say deontay or tyson were scared? the fact is they didn't fight the perceived number one guy in the division with three of the four major belts

No argument then. You're not the one claiming "ducking." You're not the one implying that Deontay was "scared."

We agree that Joshua was the perceived number one in the division at the time.

We also agree that no one knows how Wilder vs Joshua would've ended at the time.

[TIC]

I don't believe Joshua has ever ducked anyone, either. But to categorically say Fury and Wilder ducked Joshua? Hogwash.

None of that "proves" that either ducked Joshua.

I'm not a diehard fan of any of them, so bias doesn't come into my argument.

Joshua could've made the Wilder fight happen had he really wanted it. Fact.

Fury swooped in and spared us the ongoing soap opera between Joshua and Wilder. Fact.

No one knows for certain how Joshua would've fared against that version of Wilder. Fact.

aj was rated & seen as the number one in the division & held three of the four major belts. deontay & tyson both chose to fight someone other than the perceived number one guy. this proves both deontay & tyson chose not to fight the perceived number one guy with three of the four major belts. no bias needed as that is what happened.

you can't make someone fight you if they don't want to fight you. fact. what was deontay getting out of fighting tyson instead of aj? aj was seen as number one & had three of the four belts. deontay also would have made more for aj over tyson & getting a chance at three belts & the number one guy in the division

tyson swooped in to fight deontay instead of fighting the number one guy with three of the four major belts. fact. what was tyson getting out of fighting deontay instead of aj? aj was seen as number one & had three of the four belts. tyson would have made more for fighting aj over deontay & getting a chance at three belts & the number one guy in the division

no one knows how an aj v deontay fight would have gone at the time. i agree

"Choosing to fight someone else" does not automatically equate to "ducking."

Wilder and Joshua were involved in long, drawn-out negotiations. If memory serves me correctly (and I'm not one to be interested in the bickering aspect of boxing), Joshua's initial offerings to Wilder were ridiculous.

At some point yes, they were improved.

Wilder-Fury was much easier to make.

What proof do you have that both Wilder and Fury were scared to fight Joshua so they fought each other instead?

I didn't think so.

where did i say ducking? did deontay or tyson choose to fight the perceived number one guy in the division with three of the four major belts? can you please provide a source for these ridiculous offers from team aj & a source for what they improved to? deontay v tyson may have been easier to make but my argument is not about how easy a fight is to make it is about who was seen as the top guy in the division & who deontay & tyson chose to fight instead. where did i say deontay or tyson were scared? the fact is they didn't fight the perceived number one guy in the division with three of the four major belts

No argument then. You're not the one claiming "ducking." You're not the one implying that Deontay was "scared."

We agree that Joshua was the perceived number one in the division at the time.

We also agree that no one knows how Wilder vs Joshua would've ended at the time.

so no sources on those offers? the fact is both deontay & tyson chose to fight each other instead of the perceived number one in the division at the time who held three of the four major belts

[TitoFan]

I don't believe Joshua has ever ducked anyone, either. But to categorically say Fury and Wilder ducked Joshua? Hogwash.

None of that "proves" that either ducked Joshua.

I'm not a diehard fan of any of them, so bias doesn't come into my argument.

Joshua could've made the Wilder fight happen had he really wanted it. Fact.

Fury swooped in and spared us the ongoing soap opera between Joshua and Wilder. Fact.

No one knows for certain how Joshua would've fared against that version of Wilder. Fact.

aj was rated & seen as the number one in the division & held three of the four major belts. deontay & tyson both chose to fight someone other than the perceived number one guy. this proves both deontay & tyson chose not to fight the perceived number one guy with three of the four major belts. no bias needed as that is what happened.

you can't make someone fight you if they don't want to fight you. fact. what was deontay getting out of fighting tyson instead of aj? aj was seen as number one & had three of the four belts. deontay also would have made more for aj over tyson & getting a chance at three belts & the number one guy in the division

tyson swooped in to fight deontay instead of fighting the number one guy with three of the four major belts. fact. what was tyson getting out of fighting deontay instead of aj? aj was seen as number one & had three of the four belts. tyson would have made more for fighting aj over deontay & getting a chance at three belts & the number one guy in the division

no one knows how an aj v deontay fight would have gone at the time. i agree

"Choosing to fight someone else" does not automatically equate to "ducking."

Wilder and Joshua were involved in long, drawn-out negotiations. If memory serves me correctly (and I'm not one to be interested in the bickering aspect of boxing), Joshua's initial offerings to Wilder were ridiculous.

At some point yes, they were improved.

Wilder-Fury was much easier to make.

What proof do you have that both Wilder and Fury were scared to fight Joshua so they fought each other instead?

I didn't think so.

where did i say ducking? did deontay or tyson choose to fight the perceived number one guy in the division with three of the four major belts? can you please provide a source for these ridiculous offers from team aj & a source for what they improved to? deontay v tyson may have been easier to make but my argument is not about how easy a fight is to make it is about who was seen as the top guy in the division & who deontay & tyson chose to fight instead. where did i say deontay or tyson were scared? the fact is they didn't fight the perceived number one guy in the division with three of the four major belts

No argument then. You're not the one claiming "ducking." You're not the one implying that Deontay was "scared."

We agree that Joshua was the perceived number one in the division at the time.

We also agree that no one knows how Wilder vs Joshua would've ended at the time.

so no sources on those offers? the fact is both deontay & tyson chose to fight each other instead of the perceived number one in the division at the time who held three of the four major belts

I can't be bothered with the usual "produce sources" crap today. Take it or leave it.

I remember reading about it, and that's good enough for me.

BTW, I'm not in the mood to prolong useless arguments now.

We agree on some basic things and let's leave it at that.

Someone else was promoting the "ducking" angle, and you came into the conversation.

If you're not claiming "ducking" then there's nothing else to talk about.

[Primo Carnera]

deontay's power always seemed overrated to me. there's a reason he targeted tyson on the comeback trail over aj

"... targeted Tyson on the comeback trail over AJ..."

Help me understand here. Aren't comebacks usually after you've lost, or had a down in your career? If my memory serves me correctly, Wilder didn't lose until his second Fury fight. If my memory serves me correctly even further, it was Fury who jumped in and put an end to the shenanigans between Wilder and AJ where each side continuously claimed the other side was ducking. This is all well documented and was talked about ad nauseum in the forum.

The following post I think is much more accurate:

The thing is, AJ dick riders will use this as an excuse to say AJ was better and would have beaten Wilder. But I contend the 2016/2017 Wilder would have knocked AJ spark out. Like he did Fury in the first fight, just that AJ would not have gotten up.

To be clear, nobody on here disputes the fact that Wilder's fundamentals have always been flawed. That he built his early resume on inferior opposition. That he had a huge right hand and little else.

But in Spanish we have a saying: "Del arbol caído todos hacen leña." Literally translated, "everyone makes firewood from the fallen tree." The closest idea in English would be "beating a dead horse."

Now that Wilder is basically, um... firewood, it's typical boxing fan behavior to dismiss him entirely. At every stage of his career. Forget his two fights against the heavily avoided Luis Ortiz. Oh... he was too old? You mean like Zhang old? Oops, I forgot. Zhang is older than Luis Ortiz was at that time. Yet he could be in line for a title shot.

So yeah... not all AJ fans are "dick riders." Not all Wilder detractors are haters.

But the fact is no one knows for certain who was ducking whom between Wilder and AJ. All I know is Fury came in and spared us a continuation of the soap opera.

Had Wilder and AJ met at that point in time? Matter of bar/pub discussion.

I'll play it safe and call it a 50/50 fight.

It'll never happen, as Wilder is on his way out of boxing... and AJ has commendably come back from his own losses.

I’m not going to dig it all up, but it’s fairly common knowledge to the extent that Wilder admitted that he pulled out of negotiations for the fight in order to fight Fury.
He even tweeted that he took less money for the Fury fight than he would’ve got for the Joshua fight.

Which proves what exactly... that Wilder was avoiding Joshua? That Wilder was scared of Joshua?

Spin it as you like. Fact is, they were both involved in an interminable (and to us fans, insufferable) back-and-forth from which Fury saved us all. It's one of the few things I give Fury credit for in his career. He took on the big, bad monster... and was successful. Had Joshua been as willing to take that challenge as Fury was... he was perfectly capable of making it happen.

Differently from most other boxing fans, I pay less attention to empty words from fighters on social media, and more attention to circumstances, track records, and intentions.

I can’t copy and paste it cos I don’t know how to , but this is a tweet from Wilder at 19.09 on 31/10/2020.

“ When that fight was a draw, I told you that I would give you a rematch. You know I was offered more money to fight Joshua than I was getting to fight you. Again being a man of my word, I fought you
like I said I would...”
clear as day , it’s down to Wilder why the fight never happened , nobody else.
Or perhaps when they were in negotiations and Wilder said he was “offering AJ” , when in fact Wilder was having an elbow op.
Anyway , see what you want to see, but Wilder got found out and never recovered.
AJ got found out by Ruiz and put it right , and got found out by Usyk and when straight back in with him.
And although he was beaten by the better man again, yes he had a meltdown in the ring immediately after, but what has he done since ? Everything possible to put himself in contention.

Oh so you're referring to AFTER Wilder had fought Fury the first time. As long as we understand each other.

So just to be clear, you're not pushing the "Wilder was ducking Joshua" rubbish angle.

Good.

Beyond that, I don't see anything you wrote which contradicts anything I've written.

I clearly stated that Wilder and Joshua have gone in opposite directions since then.

If it makes you feel better to say it in your own words, that's cool.

My point remains.

Claims that Wilder may have ducked (or been afraid to fight) Joshua are groundless and unsubstantiated. To be fair, the other way around can't be proven either.

Had Wilder and Joshua met when they were SUPPOSED to, IMHO it would've been a 50/50 fight.

Wilder was not yet damaged... and Joshua's style was not all wrong for Wilder.

Nothing more need be said.

Believe what you want to believe and read the bits you want and ignore the bits you want. But I reckon time has proved where Wilder and Joshua both are.

My English must be faulty.

I could've sworn I've said on repeated occasions that no one is disputing where "Wilder and Joshua both are" at the moment.

Our main difference lies in that I filter out social media nonsense like Tweets, and 3rd party "he-said-she-saids", and reach my conclusions based on actual occurrences.

You insist that it was Wilder that ducked Joshua, and I respond by telling you it's impossible to establish who ducked whom.

Wilder and Joshua blabbed and postured a whole lot... and in the end it was Wilder and Fury who fought.

You'd have to ask Joshua himself what his thought processes were during that time.

Social media nonsense? The tweet was from DEONTAY WILDER. HE SAID IT HIMSELF. Case closed.

[TIC]

i'm just interested in the purses you read about do you remember how much was originally offered & how much they improved to? just roughly, i don't need exacts. i'm not claiming ducking but i am claiming both deontay & tyson avoided the perceived number one guy in the division at the time who held three of the four major belts to instead fight each other